State of Digital Clinical Trials is a Veeva podcast hosted by Richard Young, Vice President of Strategy for Vault Clinical Data Management Suite at Veeva. Over the next few months, Richard will be speaking to a series of expert guests from across pharma, biotech, and CROs to discuss their experiences, challenges, and ideas for the future of digital clinical trials. Will new technology make clinical trials more patient- and site-centric?
RICHARD YOUNG: Chris, thank you very much. This, today of all days, is pretty busy here at Summit in Zurich. The weather’s almost holding up. And I’ve stolen you away for a few minutes, so thank you very much for that.
CHRIS MOORE: Absolute pleasure, Richard, as always.
RICHARD YOUNG: Well, as my first and premier podcast guest, it’s a great honor to have you sitting with me here.
CHRIS MOORE: Well, you know, I lobbied so hard to get this first slot. I didn’t want to be number 2. So thank you for succumbing to the bribes and letting me be your first guest!
RICHARD YOUNG: Pleasure is all mine, I promise you. But we mentioned Summit, let’s reflect upon it. This is the first time in Europe we have been face-to-face with our customers in two years, effectively three. How has the experience been for you? What have you heard, what are you taking away?
CHRIS MOORE: So, as I’m sure you probably feel the same, I think the great thing about Veeva is the community, we have the great fortune to work in a phenomenal industry with bright people who want to make a difference. And you realize over the course of the pandemic we’ve all functioned. But what we’ve lacked was this, what we lacked was that face-to-face interaction, where we come together, you have those informal meetings. And you realize that we were living off the time that we spent together pre-pandemic and burning through that, and it was about time we came together. So, I think the feeling and atmosphere is just an eagerness to get back together, it’s like the world’s opening up again. And people are really open to doing things differently, better, it’s like a fresh beginning.
RICHARD YOUNG: And what do you think, in terms of what you’re hearing, the chatter in the corridors, the main themes of the conference. What are you taking away as the loudest soundbites?
CHRIS MOORE: The few things I’m taking away is, first of all, we talked about breaking down the barriers in life sciences to better join it up, to make it more effective, and that really seems to have struck a chord. I think COVID really challenged the art of the possible but there were some constraints during lockdown as to what you could really do about it, so the industry just did stunning things. But now we have an opportunity to really institutionalize that and build for the future. So, I think in terms of what I’m seeing and hearing, it’s very much an energy, a vibe, about wanting to think differently, do things differently. And on the one hand, believing the time is right to break down those barriers to new ways of working. But also there’s a pragmatic balance there which is: ‘That’s great, we do believe it, now how are we going to make it happen?’ And I see this sort of wonderful combination between optimism but also pragmatism around that optimism, which to me, I know you’ve seen much the same of this as myself, that’s when great things happen. When optimism meets pragmatism, then you get enduring change.
RICHARD YOUNG: I think for me, having watched the keynotes, the keynote for clinical, you watch the buzz in the room, the energy. It was interesting watching body language. I think post-COVID, I’ve been so sensitive to body language because over Zoom, let’s be honest–body language didn’t really exist, unless someone was faceplanting on the desk, there was no body language…
CHRIS MOORE: Let’s face it, there wasn’t a body! It was just up to there, wasn’t it!
RICHARD YOUNG: Exactly. It’s amazing how many tall people there are in our world, I’m noticing! But you know I think the body language has been incredible in terms of people listening, but sharing…I think you said it rightly on the connections but the sharing both on stage and in the post-conversations, that’s what I’ve missed over the last couple of years.
CHRIS MOORE: It’s funny, you know I think we discussed this as we were putting this event together. The question was, were people ready to come back together? Would they be a little bit guarded, would they have to relearn how to connect? But no, couldn’t agree more, quite the opposite. People are desperate to reconnect, and the energy is very visible.
RICHARD YOUNG: In terms of you mentioned barriers, and breaking down some of those barriers, are there any in particular that you think are worth sharing with our audience today?
CHRIS MOORE: Everyone is frustrated about the silo-driven approach that we currently have to R&D today. But the reality is it’s also we’ve got a hundred years of muscle mass that have built up around: ‘That’s how we do business.’ So it’s frustrating but it’s comfortable. So we’re going through a period where we’ve got two things coming together. We’ve got the can-do demonstration of what people can do under pressure that the pandemic brought us and we’ve got the advent of technology that genuinely connects and joins things up. The challenge therefore becomes that there’s really no reason why we can’t do this now, other than the fact that there’s a muscle mass and inertia around doing the things that we’ve always done. And I think this is where–you can see some of the folks here today–it’s going to be so vital that they maintain that optimism, that energy, that can-do to break through those barriers and say: ‘No, there is a better way and it’s OK, we don’t need to waste our time working in silos – there’s a better way.’
RICHARD YOUNG: Do you think, I’ve discussed this with a few people. Do you think COVID was a trigger for that or just a convenient passing of time for us to anchor onto?
CHRIS MOORE: I’m probably more of the view, having seen cycles of this come and go, that it was a turning point. I think it removed the excuses. I’m wonderfully optimistic right now. You know, we heard from Roche today the fact that they were able to introduce a whole new medical testing device in months, during a lockdown. That was spectacular. They really had to think differently, act differently. And the greatest risk that I think we have right now is that we squander that. There’s a feeling and a mood now that if we take it, we can do great things. But if we let ourselves go back to business as usual, then all the old excuses of why these things are too difficult might sneak back in.
RICHARD YOUNG: What do you think your role and Veeva’s role in continuing that journey is likely to be?
CHRIS MOORE: So you and I both joined Veeva, for probably much the same reasons. And I remember talking to you before you did, as you did to me before I did…
RICHARD YOUNG: I think we counseled each other through that transition…
CHRIS MOORE: I think we did, I think we did. And having spent my entire career – and obviously, as you know, I’m very old! – having spent my entire career trying to make technology-led transformation for the life sciences industry really stick and make a difference, there was just this enduring flaw that the technology wasn’t up to it. And trying to stitch the bits together was a fantasy. It looks great on PowerPoint but never really worked in reality in the long term. So, the bit that excited me about Veeva was here was a ground-up technology, done properly, right first time, that would endure over time. And with that, I think our role has gone from first of all, really give the industry great capabilities to join up internally. I think this next wave we’re on though is really quite special which is helping the industry to connect into the ecosystem. And I think our responsibility–and you know, I don’t use those words lightly– is that if anyone was going to enable the breaking down of barriers, we are blessed, fortunate, in that we support so much of the industry, we have a responsibility to therefore help the industry raise the level of productivity by removing all of those worthless, administrative tasks that people were forced into because the technology didn’t work together.
RICHARD YOUNG: I think it’s interesting you put it that way. One of the things that strikes me as well is that it’s showing a path so that the past doesn’t inhibit the future. I think you said it very well earlier on – there’s a hundred years of muscle mass, muscle memory, stuck in what we do and it’s time to change. The other thing that really struck me in the presentations and the keynote: patient-centricity and site-centricity have to start meaning a lot more than they have ever meant before. That’s not to say they were ignored before–I might debate that–but the point is they genuinely have to start meaning something. But along that way, it’s every user, which brings you back to sponsors. I do think it’s that playoff between sponsors, sites, and patients that’s absolutely critical.
CHRIS MOORE: The magic happens when you stop dealing with each item in separation and you start connecting the dots. And when we do that, then you have a chance to change the whole economics of the industry for the better.
RICHARD YOUNG: Let me take that one step further. The buzzword of our industry is my least favorite phrase, which is decentralized clinical trials. I’m going to park that but I’m going to go with digital trials. We’ve talked a lot, and heard a lot from our attendees here, about digital trials. What’s your take on how that’s going to continue to change the industry and where we’re going to play a role in that?
CHRIS MOORE: I worry sometimes about any label on this because sometimes it can be a cliche for: ‘We’re doing this, therefore we’re OK.’ As opposed to a heartfelt, ‘Actually, how do we connect the dots to make the entirety better?’ But if I play along with digital trials and what it means to me, I go back to what are we trying to achieve here? We’re trying to get the right patients into the right trials in as an efficient way as possible, recognizing that the individuals in many cases are suffering through some pretty nasty illnesses, so we bear a duty of responsibility to accelerate that process to bring medicines to the broader population, for making sure the right people turn up to those studies and to make sure that the experience, while they’re on it, is as painless and unobtrusive as possible. So, to me, I always slightly worry about the word ‘digital’, which as you know in my consulting days I did a lot of ‘digital’ programs, because actually, I’d flip it around, I would almost sort of say that this is a patient-driven problem both in terms of right patients, right trials, right time. Right experience. But then an acceleration so that the ultimate patient once the drug is launched can get benefit from it. So, it’s actually about joining the dots and it’s a very human thing, but using technology to achieve that aim. Sorry, that was a long and rambling answer!
RICHARD YOUNG: I’m happy with that answer! It’s one of the best ones I’ve had so far.
CHRIS MOORE: It’s good that this is the first podcast!
RICHARD YOUNG: Exactly, well, I’ve rehearsed a few times, it might not look that way, but I really have! I think that was a very good answer. It’s nice to hear you use phrases like ‘our responsibility’ because that is something that’s very important to me and to all of Veeva, we need to be doing these things and leading by example. So, conscious of time, let me come to my final question, which is a question I’m going to be asking everyone, so bear with me, but it’s the ‘what if’ question. If we could give you a magic wand that you could wave tomorrow, are there two things in this industry that you wish you could start doing that you can’t do today, and two things you wish you could just, you know, put into Room 101 or cast into the forever ago, not to be repeated?
CHRIS MOORE: So I think that’s a really tough question because I think to distill it down to just those two on each side is quite a challenge but let me try and get there. So, I think, for me, I’m impatient around this whole notion about what we can do in clinical. So, I’d like to go all-in with my two and get to a point where we can enroll patients, we can capture their data, and we can share that with investigators, sites, sponsors, with CROs seamlessly integrated in. To a point where we’ve increased the access to the right patients to the right studies, and we’ve accelerated the process and that the patients who have gone through that have had a better, less obtrusive experience. So, you know, distilled down, if I could say, I want to be there today with a great patient experience and I’d like to be there today with an integrated network to enable that.
Things I’d love to stop doing. In some ways, I would almost like a collective amnesia for the industry right now. And specifically, around we must do things this way. I think we’ve got a chance to, if not tear up the rulebook, we’ve got a chance to revisit it in a really radical and fundamental way. It doesn’t matter what we do in terms of creation of a platform and a technology, it really requires the incredible people out there in the industry to really embrace it with both hands. So you know, I think collective amnesia while we go through these programs would be a wonderful thing.
Now, what’s it like for the patient, what’s it like for the investigator, how do we make better studies and how do we actually make a difference from that? And so, you know, I think on both sides, you probably sense it, it’s an impatience, back to this duty – we have to do this, and we have to do it as quickly as possible.
RICHARD YOUNG: I think it’s a brilliant way to sum up. I think we’re at the convergence points of enabling the science that we know matters and creating an operational environment where people can excel. That’s really where I see us fitting. By enabling that science, be it adaptive trials, new research techniques, whatever it might be. But giving people a way to do it efficiently, more with less. Meet the business goals, faster, more effective. I think that’s the space we need to occupy. But thank you for that and thank you for being the first guest of this podcast.
Join us for next episode with Trevor Griffiths of Syneos Health. We’ll be discussing what data management of the future will look like. Listen and subscribe Spotify | Youtube | Apple
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